unbalanced

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unbalanced

Post by Supermartin on Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:40 pm

I have found the game to be unbalanced. I see that no one else has apparently noticed this. The Dungeon Lord is winning every game I play and I have played many, many games of Fallen. The Dungeon Lord always has a creature to help him, but the Hero does not always have equipment to help him. Is anyone else noticing this issue with the game??

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Re: unbalanced

Post by StormbringerGT on Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:15 am

Having played the game probably 100 times now (stopped keeping track a while back) and probably 90% of those plays are Dungeon Lord as I am usually teaching new people, I can safely say that I disagree with your assessment on that. Strongly.

I'm probably at 50% win ratio. And that's while teaching new players.

There might be some key rules you are overlooking or playing wrong, or just maybe trying to nail down when to spend your resources.

Here are some general tips, but without seeing how you play I can't offer better tailored ones.


  • The biggest one, know when to give up and not trying to win a challenge. This takes experience, but you can;t win every challenge. Pick and choose your battles very carefully.


  • The Heroes Equipment refreshes every story card. So don't go exhausting all your cards by challenge 2 needlessly.


  • Same thing with Fortune, this is your lifeblood and its very easy to use all of it on challenge one between the 2 extra dice you can add to a roll and your Power cards.


  • The Dungeon Lord has to roll first and spend his resources first, this means you get to react to his rolls. If he is rolling 6 or 7 swords on his initial roll, and spends no resources you need to assess if this is something you can win and if it is worth the resources you might need to expend to win.


  • Try and win those Omen challenges! Those Omen cards are bad news. They are free for the DL to play, but they do take up a hand card. They are usually his swing card. The more of those he is holding in his hand, the worse off the Hero is. When an Omen challenge comes up make him work for that win. Try not to let him choose, you cant stop him from getting one, but you can stop him from picking the best of the two.


  • New players tend to overlook the Shadow Track. This is bad. Trying to keep this in your favor is more important than you think. Your Ultimate ability is better, your Power cards are usually cheaper. Its sometimes better to take a double shift than a treasure challenge token!


  • Kill those monsters. You might think "why bother?" but this is a valuable source of XP for you. If you can't seem to win those challenges then punish his creatures! Even if you don't kill but put a damage token on all of them you are making progress. Remember if he levels up a damaged creature you get 1xp Partial kill credit for it.


  • There is no "right way" to level up your Hero skills, but try to keep focused, if you want to get one level in each one that's fine, but after that try to hit level 3 in one of them. There is usually not enough experience for you to get all of them to level 3, but your level 3 skills are usually your best bets in terms of dice rolled and the knock on effects.


  • Remember the Dungeon Lord only refreshes his creatures when he is out of creatures and he needs to pick on during a challenge, normally this is how it works as there are 4 challenges in a story car and he has 4 creatures. However depending on the Hero you can find ways to deny him key important creatures by exhausting them via card powers, or by using some Hero Skills you can simply pick the monster he has to use for the challenge which could line up a kill for you on top of him losing the challenge for not being able to use the right creature for the job! If you do get to pick his creature picking the weakest one isn't always the best idea. If it is a strength check and he has a nasty Lich waiting to be activated for later use, use your skill and pick the Lich, he won't get the bonus for him using a strength based creature for this challenge, and you deny him that Lich if a knowledge check comes up before he refreshes everything. Not to mention you have just begun playing some mind games on him!


Hopefully this helps you up your game. Personally win or lose I always have a blast! For me the story and journey are more important than the destination, but being able to put up a good fight makes it more fun for everyone involved. If you have any questions or think you might be misplaying something drop a post here, lots of friendly fans around. Smile

If you have a Steam account and have Tabletop simulator feel free to add me: StormbringerGT and we can play a few rounds together online and see where you are at, gameplay wise. Very Happy


Last edited by StormbringerGT on Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:37 am; edited 3 times in total

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Re: unbalanced

Post by Unisus on Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:16 am

The hero always has his attributes and skills to help him. So the equipment he uses is on top of that.

Without using UA, fortune or power cards, the DL has his 2 black dice + creature dice + eventually bonus dice from the creature for having the right attribute. In the same situation the hero has his 2 white dice + his attribute die + skill dice. In addition he can use equipment.

So while it's asymetrical, it's not unbalanced.

Maybe there is a different problem with your plays?

@Strombringer: Totally agree with you except for one little point

StormbringerGT wrote:Omen cards ... don't take up a hand card.
Here you are mistaken, see page 26 under Omen Cards, 8th line. But they of course still are really mean.

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Re: unbalanced

Post by StormbringerGT on Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:32 am

Typo, fixed thanks! Very Happy

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Re: unbalanced

Post by Supermartin on Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:43 am

Wow, thanks StormbringerGT for taking the time to post all those tips. I have been doing all of the above and DL is a winner every time. DL rolls first, so it is kind of hard to give up the challenge. I do love playing the game, just wish the Hero could win one. I read the rules over an over again trying to fix this issue I am having. Thanks for the help though.

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Re: unbalanced

Post by StormbringerGT on Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:04 am

Supermartin wrote:Wow, thanks StormbringerGT for taking the time to post all those tips. I have been doing all of the above and DL is a winner every time. DL rolls first, so it is kind of hard to give up the challenge. I do love playing the game, just wish the Hero could win one. I read the rules over an over again trying to fix this issue I am having. Thanks for the help though.

If you have steam shoot me a message, We can play a virtual game sometime. Very Happy

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Re: unbalanced

Post by Supermartin on Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:58 am

What is steam?

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Re: unbalanced

Post by StormbringerGT on Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:00 am


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Re: unbalanced

Post by Guurzak on Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:51 am

With both players playing optimally, the Hero has a small advantage. The fact that the dungeon lord must decide blind how many resources to commit to a roll, while the hero can choose whether to invest or take a cheap loss after seeing the DL's results mean that the hero can manage resources much more efficiently than the DL can. It's not an insurmountable advantage, but claiming the game is unbalanced in the DL's favor is just wrong.

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Re: unbalanced

Post by Unisus on Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:34 am

The game is not unbalanced - it's asymmetric.
The hero has advantages in some points, the dungeon lord in others.
While the hero knows, what the target is for his dice roll, the dungeon lord wins every draw. The dungeon lord knows what lies before him depending on the hero's choices, while the hero makes the choices. The hero gains dice from his attributes, his skills and his equipment, the dungeon lord has his creatures to support him - the creatures are readied when the dungeon lord needs one, the hero has to manage his equipment carefully.

So, there are advantages for the hero as well as for the dungeon lord, and WTG worked a lot on the game to make theese advantages balanced against each other.

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Re: unbalanced

Post by Guurzak on Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:56 am

Unisus wrote:The game is not unbalanced - it's asymmetric.

There's no reason it can't be both! The game is definitely asymmetric, but that doesn't make it balanced.

I maintain my stance that an optimally played hero will win slightly more than 50% of games over a long enough run. The developers did a good job of balancing the game, but not a perfect one. With that said, I'm just as happy to play either side and I don't care as much about winning as I do about having a fun game with friends, so that imbalance doesn't bother me at all.

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Re: unbalanced

Post by Unisus on Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:16 am

Where do you get that from, that the game is unbalanced and the hero would win slightly more often than the dungeon lord? Do you have any facts which would support your statement?

Does your "optimally played hero" include memorizing all story cards, so that the dungeon lord has no advantage from advanced knowledge?

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Re: unbalanced

Post by StormbringerGT on Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:57 am

As my number of games of Fallen starts creeping towards the mid 100s (!) I have to disagree the wins seems split close to 50/50 with very experienced players being able to utilize either side effectively.

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Re: unbalanced

Post by Khadan on Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:18 pm

What all is needed to play on Steam? Is it just the Tabletop or the add on packs as well for Tabletop?

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Re: unbalanced

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